Jim Dunn is a nationally recognized HR leader with more than three decades of experience guiding culture, talent, and transformation strategies across prominent healthcare and nonprofit organizations. He served as Chief People and Culture Officer at Advocate Health and held HR roles at Parkland Health and the American Cancer Society. Jim currently serves as CEO and President of LD Human Capital Consulting. Jim offers a wealth of perspectives on leadership development, executive onboarding, behavioral assessments, and organizational culture.

Q & A With Jim Dunn

Judy Kirby: Jim, you are a board chair, people and culture executive, six-time CHRO, author, professor, human capital advisor, and executive coach. That is impressive! After positions at an oil company, Emory University, and the American Cancer Society, how did you end up in healthcare?

She removed the turban from her head, and that’s when it hit me that she was a cancer patient. She was there for an appointment with the Look Good Feel Better program and had three different styles of wigs, and she wanted my opinion on which looked better on her. Shocked and deeply touched at the same time, I took a deep breath and engaged with her as she changed into several different styles of wigs.

Look Good Feel Better was and probably still is a global cancer program dedicated to restoring the confidence and self-esteem of cancer patients. She was there to meet with one of the trained volunteer cosmetologists, a female, and simply wanted a male perspective. Hopefully, I was able to help her make a good decision, but it was one of those pivotal moments where I knew I wanted to be closer to engaging and serving those directly involved in patient care.

Judy: Your career has included roles at prestigious medical facilities, including Parkland Health and Hospital, Advocate Health, and the Cleveland Clinic. As you moved from organization to organization, how have you successfully navigated distinct cultures? What did you learn from your onboarding experiences?

Jim: It has been a privilege to work for such world-class healthcare organizations over the last decade. As the adage goes, “If you’ve seen 50 hospitals, you’ve seen 50 hospitals.” I say that to emphasize the importance of listening first, as each organization has its own values, challenges, and culture.

One onboarding practice that I picked up from the Cleveland Clinic was a new leader assimilation process, something that I had not experienced up until that point. It’s a structured method for integrating new leaders into a team and ultimately the organization. It aims to accelerate the leader’s effectiveness through a facilitated process that clarifies expectations, expedites building rapport and relationships, and fosters open communication. It’s more like a qualitative 360 within your first month of hire that involves your boss, peers, and direct reports.

I found the process to be so effective, especially with my direct reports, that I have used it ever since then in every onboarding scenario. I took it a step further in that I invite my previous direct reports to spend a day with my new direct reports to share what it’s like to work with me as a leader. Often, they end up sharing work practices and forming some relationships of their own. One of the fun stories from this effort is when one of my direct reports from Parkland met and interacted with a current direct report at Advocate and today, they are married with two sons!

Judy: Can you share more about the process?

Jim: I was in a room with two of the vice presidents of learning. We spent about two hours together, and they asked all sorts of fun, silly questions, like, “In an emergency situation, do you prefer a call, a text, or an email?” I said, “Well, whichever works or whichever is going to get the message across.” They took notes, and the conversation continued from there. “What do you do first thing in the morning?” “Do you prefer one-sided or two-sided copies?” I was starting to think it was silly. After 50 or 60 of these questions, I was exhausted. They said, “Thank you for trusting the process. We’ve done this many times with leaders, and we will be back in two weeks.”

In two weeks, they sent me a five or six-page report. Unbeknownst to me, they had also met with my direct reports and asked them a bunch of questions. In the report, they combined the questions I asked with those my direct reports had asked.

Next, I had a meeting with my direct reports, and in a fun way, I shared with them all the things I enjoy doing. They laughed, and I laughed at their questions. There was an abbreviated version of this meeting with my new C-suite peers, and I absolutely loved it. In three months, I felt like I had been there for two years. The way I interacted with my team, and they interacted with me, eliminated all the awkwardness that you usually feel when starting a new job. It was wonderful, so I decided to do that in the future.

Judy: When interviewing candidates for senior leadership roles in healthcare, what are the most important attributes and how do you test for them?

Jim: All organizations like to start with their mission and values. However, very few of them interview candidates for alignment with those values. It’s important to focus on assessing their understanding of the organization’s purpose and how those resonate with their own personal values. Essentially, they should understand their own WHY? And how their WHY shows up in a leadership role.

I would also recommend using a tool to gauge levels of emotional intelligence, because it’s becoming increasingly important that healthcare leaders have the capacity to understand and manage their own emotions, while being empathetic towards others. This not only helps leaders build trust and resolve conflicts but also supports those caring for patients during challenging situations.

And finally, using behavior-based interviewing questions, assess their level of constructive collaboration as a member of several different teams, sometimes as a leader and other times as a contributor.

Judy: Not all new hires succeed in an organization. What is your advice for making sure the right person gets hired?

Jim: I believe that it starts by reframing hiring as mutual discovery, not a one-way vetting process. Every hire is an investment in the unique skill set of an individual and should be viewed as such. Secondary to this is the importance of emphasizing alignment with organizational values and team dynamics over technical skills.

We use a variety of different assessment tools, customized to the needs of the client and the role, to build robust hiring frameworks to make sure they hire candidates who are the right fit. For more senior and C-suite roles, it often involves a minimum of two assessment types as they each provide different predictive value and multi-dimensional views.

Judy: How do you decide which assessments are best for a situation?

Jim: Well, sometimes the organization is already in a contract with one of the assessment companies, or if you use an external search partner, they may have a preferred assessment, and you use that one.

The meeting I just came from was with six of my client leaders going through a debrief of the DISC assessment. The reason why I chose DISC in this situation is that they wanted to zero in on behaviors that are not necessarily conducive to team culture when individuals are under stress. So that is really good for an intact team. But if you are looking for a data point and selection of a leader, I would more likely go with the Hogan.

I see the assessment as one data point. The resume is a data point, and then you have the interview itself. But when you’ve gone from 15 candidates down to two or three finalists, you can only select one to hire.

I don’t use assessments early on in the process. I advise waiting till you get to the top two or three finalists. That’s where the additional data point is valuable.

Judy: Jamie Dimon, CEO of JPMorgan, questions the effectiveness of remote work, especially for individuals earlier in their careers. What is your view?

Jim: I believe organizations should strive to achieve a balance, as one size does not fit all when it comes to work preferences. Research does suggest that proximity accelerates learning in early careers. However, there are a couple of realities: One is that remote work is here to stay and is quickly becoming the linchpin by which many new cultures are being created. The second is that, for it to be successful, it must be bigger than individual (CEO or C-suite) preferences. 

But the point is that remote work is here to stay. Hybrid work is here to stay. So in HR, we’re going to have to figure it out because the talent will continue to want some sort of hybrid approach. We just have to figure out how to build SQ, EQ, and culture in a different way.

Judy: What advice do you give organizations to strengthen their culture, especially with remote and hybrid work?

Jim: As an example, I’ll use a national client organization that embraces a remote-first work environment or hybrid approach where employees can work from anywhere in the 50 US States. We started with why a remote-first strategy works best for the organization, recognizing the value and benefits of remote work, including better work-life balance, more flexibility to work a schedule that fits personal needs, and improved productivity.

While a remote-first working environment has many advantages, employees must still meet organizational expectations. Set clear expectations such as employees shall be available for meetings and collaboration between the hours of 10:00 A.M. and 4:00 P.M. Leverage technology to make remote work collaboration easier and develop some ground rules for how teams will use technology to communicate – email, Teams chat, texts. Be clear about which channels to use.

And finally, I recommend longer and more developed onboarding processes for remote employees, emphasizing mentorship, structured learning, and feedback loops. I tend to have the onboarding go for about 90 days in remote environments. It involves numerous connection points, including exposing them to key leaders and fostering a sense of community and culture. It is important because they won’t be around those people regularly, seeing them every morning and chatting in the hallway or by the coffee maker. You don’t have any of that. We help clients build out much more expansive onboarding programs, and they absolutely love it.

Judy: These are stressful times in healthcare. As a human capital consultant, what are you hearing from client organizations, and what advice are you giving them to help improve their culture?

Jim: What I’m seeing consistently in organizations from all industries and of all sizes is uncertainty, from the C-suite level all the way down to entry-level roles. Uncertainty stemming mostly from concerns over automation, technological advancement, the threat of layoffs, etc.

I’m advising organizations to double down on the basics—evidence-based things that we know work across different cultures. People want to feel seen, heard, and valued, not just compensated. A preponderance of evidence shows humans are biologically predisposed to desire human connection, regardless of individual personality styles or types. Therefore, we encourage leaders to be visible, vulnerable, and value-driven.

We are seeing success through frequent employee pulse surveys where resulting actions are broadly communicated, and through listening tours and specific well-being programs for all employees. 

Judy: There are many terms flying around like “quiet quitting,” “grumpy staying,” “bare minimum Mondays,” and “acting your wage,” all reflecting a trend of worker disengagement and dissatisfaction. To what do you attribute so much disengagement, and how do organizations reengage their teams?

Jim: I recently did some research on this topic in preparation for a keynote address, and I learned that employee disengagement is a process that typically progresses through stages and most often reflects unmet expectations. It also showed the largest culprits for overall employee disengagement to be 1) a lack of appreciation for their work, 2) no opportunity for career advancement, 3) a lack of autonomy, and 4) the organization’s values don’t align with employees’ values.

Solving one or more of these would be a start towards reengaging teams. I published a Forbes article, “The Recipe for Effective Leadership Has Changed, And Humility Is a Key Ingredient,” in which I highlight that sharing wins with your team, acknowledging personal shortcomings as a leader, and highlighting the successes of others are at the heart of re-engagement.

Judy: How do you think AI will affect the workforce over the next few years, and how can individuals and companies prepare for the possible elimination of their jobs?

Jim: I think AI, machine learning, and robotics will take over the more mechanical and IQ-heavy roles. There is great potential for these to be commoditized, whereas roles requiring human touch and relationships (high EQ skill sets) will demand higher wages.

Also, as time passes, people will see that AI in mechanical and IQ-heavy tasks will be more reliable than humans, and they’ll trust it more and more.  Meanwhile, if they experience AI in high emotional situations, they will realize they prefer a human. This understanding and preference will accelerate over time.

In December 2023, I published a Forbes article aimed at helping HR leaders overcome some of the anxiety around AI, for both them and their workforces. HR leaders need to be well-versed in the capabilities—and limitations—of AI to ensure or lessen panic among their workforces.

Judy: Many organizations now say they can train for skills, and that college degrees may be less important than they once were. EQ and SQ seem to be at the top of the list of what employers want. What are your thoughts on the right balance?

Jim: Finding the right balance is definitely the right approach, Judy. Let me say that formal education has and likely will always be a valuable foundation, providing people with the underlying set of skills that make them effective employees and leaders. Because of the time and cost involved in the pursuit of a four-year degree, many people are opting to avoid the traditional college route and find success through skill development and experience alone.

As it relates to EQ and SQ, the ongoing debate remains if it can be learned. I believe EQ is not a fixed trait but a set of skills that can be learned and enhanced with practice and the right resources. This relates to self-motivation, self-awareness and emotional regulation.

Judy: Looking back on your 30-plus-year career, which of your positions was most satisfying?

Jim: I must say that I am very fortunate to have enjoyed most, if not all, of the roles I’ve had, each serving as a building block for the next opportunity. If I were forced to call out one, it would be my time working for and with former President Jimmy Carter at the Carter Presidential Center in Atlanta. Beyond his presidency, having a front row seat to experience his focus on human centered rights and conflict resolution strategies, was remarkable to watch and helped shape how I view the world and others.

Judy: What has been the key to your career success, Jim? 

Jim: The fundamental belief that nobody owes you a living–that what you achieve or fail to achieve in your lifetime is directly related to what you do or don’t do. No one chooses their parents or childhood, but you can choose your own direction. And lastly, don’t take yourself too seriously and continue to learn and seek new understandings. 

Judy: What advice would you give other CHROs in healthcare to help them be more successful?

Jim: I tell people that as a CHRO in healthcare, first and foremost, you must have an appreciation for those who are serving the patients on the front line. Sure, you have to be there for management, you have to be there for the CEO, for the board, but you equally have to be there for the people who take care of the patient.

If you are the type of person who’s afraid to get fired for doing the right thing, afraid of fighting for the right thing, which most often is the culture, the climate, and making your healthcare system a great place to work, then a CHRO role in healthcare is probably not for you. Because we have so many stressors that we can’t control in terms of reimbursement rates, and in terms of the health of our communities, your primary focus should be taking those stressors off the front-line staff.

Judy: Was there anything specific that led you to write the book, 101 Lessons in Leading with Laughter?

I do understand and respect that not everyone values appropriate humor as highly as I do. Historically, cultures around the world have used humor to connect, to cope, and to celebrate. If used appropriately, it can be a social facilitator; it can disarm tension, promote inclusivity, and even aid in conflict resolution.

Specifically, the book is divided into five distinct sections–Lessons in Humility, Lessons in Endurance, Lessons in Commitment, Lessons in Resilience, and Lessons in Levity–because these are the key areas in which I feel we can learn from humor’s application. Each section opens with one of my own experiences and supportive research that ties humor to these five critical aspects of professional life. Then, this research is supported by qualitative data in the form of contributed stories–101 to be exact–from people across multiple countries.